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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 10:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Yep, even more complicated than that...but I was making the point for mr simpleton.

Don't worry, I know where we stand as well, but I was trying to convey that when it comes to "war", whether it be local tribal conflict, or full scale nation on nation, the mid-east is both right there with us (ie, the negatives of war have kept them down more than up, if you ask me), and by no means easily protrayed as having a united front that "took" the Holy Land, etc., etc., etc.

I have read those/seen those you mention, but just out of curiosity, you don't really view those folks as victims to the degree these folks portray them (ie, Mid East tribal units)? The way they treated other groups of their own and did everything to "get theirs" at the expense of their supposed muslim brothers matches ANY atrocities of the West...Examining how they divided up the Mid East post WWI (as they went along with "us") and what they (neighboring arab states using them as pawns) did to the Palestinians was appalling...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 11:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

It's hard to say what would happen without exter4nal intervention. The world powers each pick cutthroat partners to keep up the turmoil and prevent the "other" side from winning. Just beyond the short run, everyone loses.

What would Iran be without all the shah's men, a democracy in control of their oil resources? The worst mullahs would probably be weaker. But even now, the top (or a top) mullah has a PhD in philosophy from a German university, so it's like not their totally informed like many of our leaders.

I think that yes the third world has been victimized by the West -- for about 500 years! But again yes, they are themselves corrupt, and happily in the US we don't have bribe the clerk to get a driver's license, just to begin with.

But the ill we inflict and resources we steal will have to be paid eventually, in this life or the next. That's why we don't do our own ignorant children/citizens good when we shield them from their own error. But I can tell people in my family that we have hundreds of military of bases across the world for our own benefit, and they just can't think twice about it.

Why is a nation of about 300 million so afraid of 5,000 al qaida? I guess it's the same reason that some people blame Obama for the big recession -- zombie virus!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 12:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Yep; that was sorta my original point that got lost in my overstated reactionary response to what's his name...doesn't excuse us by any means. I just get bristley when some folks (not you, nor even simpleton) portray some of them as innocent victims rather than (often) accomplices, etc., etc., doing much of the same to their "own" with our help...like here in the West with the Apaches and what they were doing to the others way back when and why some of those others welcomed folks that would combat them (the Apaches), blah, blah, blah.

As we both said--it's always a lot more complicated than the simple cliches suggest, and most any zealot with a cause almost by defn uses oversimplifications for advancing their case...As long as someone intelligent considers the issues, aware of the complexity, it's almost always the case that you can carry on a reasonable discussion, in part because the complexity never lends itself to simple summaries of black and white, etc.

Thanks for the input.